[Ldraw-content] Forwarding thoughts about the MOTM/SOTM contest

[James Reynolds]

I agree completely with Zack Best.  I have thought of entering the  
contest but the lack of focus results in a lack of interest, at least  
with myself.  Winning the contest right now doesn't say much.  There  
is no prestige.  Who knows who voted, or how many people voted, or  
who even looks at the winners.  I know I would die to win a contest  
over at cgsociety:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdisplay.php?f=121

The prestige that goes along with winning those awards speak  
volumes.  There needs to be someway to generate demand to win the  
contest.  Getting someone in the AFOL community who has prestige  
(Erik Sophie, Chris Giddens, etc) to enter the contest would make it  
prestigious.  Winning a real prize could just be a way to encourage  
someone like Chris Giddens to enter.

One thing CGSociety does is that they have a forum and if a user wins  
an award, the award is listed on all of their posts in the forum.   
Maybe we could get Lugnet to support something similar.

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?threadid=179462

And perhaps having users vote isn't the best approach either, but  
have a panel of "expert" judges.  This could also add to the  
prestige, because it means you have been judged by people with prestige.

Also, sometimes just looking at a model (what happens when the public  
votes) won't reveal significant defects in it that become apparent  
when the model is either built, printed as instructions, or animated  
(my pet peeve with most LDraw models is that they are built all wrong  
for animation).  How do you know if pieces are not snapped into place  
but just floating?  Someone needs to inspect the model.  It would be  
the panels responsibility to test these things.

And a theme panel is especially appropriate for a themed contest  
because an expert space builder would have insight to truly ingenious  
space modeling, but perhaps not castle modeling.  So each theme could  
have its own specialists to judge the models.  In other words, get  
the non-LDraw castle folks to judge castle themed competitions, space  
folk space competitions, etc.

And there seems to be a disconnect between the LDraw part and the MOC  
part of the competition.  What are these contests, MOC contests in  
the LDraw medium, or LDraw contests of MOC's?  There is a difference  
that I think is significant yet not addressed.  The difference is  
more obvious when thinking of the scene contest.  Is it a MOC contest  
in the ray-tracer medium, or is it a ray-tracer contest showing MOC's?

Here is another way of putting it.  There are ton's of SUPER MOC's  
out there made by AFOL who have built up a reputation of quality  
building, but they don't use LDraw.  If those people made LDraw  
models of their MOC's, they could easily win every contest hands  
down.  And there are tons of SUPER POV-Ray users out there who don't  
use LDraw.  If they did and imported the objects into POV-Ray, they  
could build background scenes that again, nobody could challenge.

And to complicate matters more, Mladen, IMO, could win every month if  
he submitted his models.  Again, this goes to show the disconnect.   
Why isn't he submitting his models?  He is both a genius MOC builder  
AND an LDraw user!

And personally, I know the idea behind the simple unappealing model  
renders is to make them fair, but they are not fun to look at.  I  
think they need to be ray traced with complimentary scenes and  
lighting.  And it wouldn't hurt to have 360 degree spins of the  
models, and maybe even take apart spins too.  Again, I think this  
will increase the prestige.

I would actually like a themed contest.  I have wanted LDraw MOCs for  
animations for a long time, but there aren't any enough of good  
enough quality (for what I'm looking for).  I have given serious  
thought of hosting my own contests and giving away real prizes to get  
people to create something I could use.  CGSociety also has huge  
themed contests also:

http://features.cgsociety.org/challenge/

Many of the contest submitters got published:

http://store.cgsociety.org/product/000082/
http://store.cgsociety.org/product/000099/

I know LDraw is very small compared to CGSociety, but there are  
certainly many active Lego AFOL's who have the ability to submit some  
fantastic works if they had the motivation.  And there is TLG.  I'm  
not sure if they would want to share some of their prestige, but who  
knows.  And I know when Tim C. was working on LPrize he had some  
significant backing (although for a  different type of contest, it  
just goes to show that getting prestigious or financial backing for  
real prizes isn't impossible).  His contest was a significant  
motivation behind the PCS dogfight animation I created.  And it was  
shown on TV.  That prestige thing again...

Other things.

I like the 100 piece contest idea.  I've got several models I could  
submit but wont on the current rules because of the risk that someone  
submits some 10000 piece model.  In fact, some of the community  
contests have a themed contest and have 3 different size categories  
(with 3 prizes).

Is 2 months enough time for some types of MOCs (capital ships...)?   
And judging should not begin until the submission deadline.  This is  
a huge problem IMO.

And there needs to be a way to handle models that don't win.  Do they  
stay in the competition indefinitely?  What if model A is an  
exceptional model, but someone submits model B, which is absolutely  
ingenious and wins hands down.  But the next month, nothing is  
submitted that even comes close to model A from the month before?   
Should model A have stayed in the competition (and thus won)?  I  
believe I have actually seen this happen in the contests in the past  
(where a previous month's submission lost but was better than the  
next month's submissions).  A themed contest would partially solve  
this.  Another solution is honorable mentions (not a required award,  
but only if it is deemed exceptional).

And the scene contests.  People use all kinds of different rendering  
techniques.  What about using Anton Raves' POV-Ray library?  Would  
those qualify if the original scene/models were created in LDraw?   
What if they weren't?  Would it still qualify?  What if I port LDraw  
models to Blender and then Maya and use RenderMan to render it, or  
what if I modify the models in ways that are impossible in LDraw or  
POV-Ray, like deforming minifigs into life like positions or using  
volumetrics or other effects that are really difficult in POV-Ray?

And yet, if those things are allowed, then they should also be part  
of the judging.  For example, a scene that uses fog poorly should be  
docked.  What if someone works hours and hours developing their own  
light effects, and someone else just uses the POV-Ray lens flare  
macro?  Are these taken into consideration?  This provides further  
evidence that the scene contest is too unfocused.  It needs some sort  
of guidelines to take these variables into account.

In a way, the scene competition is really the "publicly judged" one  
(vs judged by a panel), because it seems that anything goes in it,  
and the winner is the one who appeals to the visual senses most.

And I can never find the link to see the submissions and vote.  After  
a few minutes I remember that I need to login.  Which gives me the  
link to vote.  Which leads to a very empty page with a link to vote  
on something having nothing to do with the contest.  This may annoy  
new comers (and since the contest hasn't been held for a while,  
really everyone is a new comer).

Ok, I've been editing this email for grammar for way too long and  
every time through it keeps doubling in size.  I guess I feel  
strongly about this.  I'll just have to live with any errors.  So if  
there is a sentence half written or something that doesn't make sense  
somewhere above, you know why.  I'll stop now....  O:)

I like the idea of the contests.  But I think they could use a lot of  
improvement, mainly focus like Zack said, and focus on making it a  
prestigious contest.

James


On Oct 16, 2006, at 3:23 PM, Timothy Gould wrote:

> Of course we could also keep the special competitions as a rare event
> (say two a year) announced two months in advance. That would give
> people the time and a greater inclination to enter them.
>
> TIm
>
>
> On 10/16/06, LDraw <ldraw at holly-wood.it> wrote:
>> I like the idea of the 100 pieces or a theme-bound contest. we could
>> alternate them. also a rotation challenge or using at least two given
>> pieces could work.
>>
>> w.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Timothy Gould schrieb:
>> > I do agree that the MOTM could do with some tweaking. Personally I
>> > won't enter it because it doesn't make any sense to me. I quite  
>> like
>> > SOTM as it is presently run since judging a complete picture is
>> > arbitrary anyway and it can really be boiled down to what you like
>> > best.
>> >
>> > As I expressed in my private response to Zach my worry is that by
>> > making either more precise we limit entrants from what is already a
>> > very small pool. That said if we keep the categories broad  
>> enough (eg.
>> > castle models, models under 100 pieces) then people might have  
>> stuff
>> > already done that they can submit.
>> >
>> > It's a difficult question though.
>> >
>> > Tim
>> >
>> > On 10/16/06, Orion Pobursky <orion at ldraw.org> wrote:
>> >> LDraw wrote:
>> >> > hi,
>> >> >
>> >> > I'll forward the following email. if you feel this belongs  
>> more to the
>> >> > steerco please let me know.
>> >> >
>> >> > w.
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >  >----Messaggio originale----
>> >> > Da: zach.best at gmail.com
>> >> > Data: 16-ott-2006 7.05 PM
>> >> > A: <WILLY.TSCHAGER at tin.it>
>> >> > Ogg: Re: LDraw.org MOTM/SOTM Relaunch
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Hi,
>> >> >
>> >> > Thank you for restarting the MOTM/SOTM.  I am excited to take  
>> part in
>> >> > the challenges.
>> >> >
>> >> > I would like to propose a change to MOTM/SOTM.
>> >> >
>> >> > As it stands, the challenges are very unfocused. A person can  
>> basically
>> >> > use any model they have built in ages past.  Scenes are a little
>> >> > different, but many times old works can be used.  There is  
>> also a
>> >> > discrepancy in who "wins."  Are we supposed to judge each  
>> separately?
>> >> > Well we want our favorite entry to win, but how do you decide  
>> between
>> >> > clever (bonsai tree) vs. technical (starship) vs. cool  
>> (???)?  It seems
>> >> > so mish-mash.
>> >> >
>> >> > The change I would like to propose is to have a monthly theme  
>> for each
>> >> > MOTM/SOTM.  The themes can be really simple and ambiguous  
>> (see the
>> >> > Internet Ray Tracing Contest irtc.org for ideas).
>> >> >
>> >> > I think this would help the MOTM/SOTM for the following reasons:
>> >> > (1) Focus.  Part of the MOTM/SOTM is to give other LDRAW users
>> >> ideas. We
>> >> > want to share knowledge.  When you have a 50,000 piece  
>> starship sitting
>> >> > next to a 500 piece vignette, the reader loses focus.  They  
>> can't
>> >> > compare how the builder of the starship created his radar  
>> dishes to how
>> >> > the vignette builder posed the minifig.  If the challenges  
>> were themed,
>> >> > a reader could do exactly that.  There would be a bigger  
>> reason to
>> >> > compare what has been entered and thereby expand the reader's  
>> knowledge
>> >> > of Lego and LDRAW.
>> >> > (2) Interest. While I can't speak for everyone, a
>> >> > 'submit-whatever-you-want' contest is not interesting.  This  
>> directly
>> >> > correlates with focus.  An unfocused challenge will not draw the
>> >> > interest that the MOTM/SOTM has the potential to draw. If the  
>> monthly
>> >> > challenge has a theme, I believe the interest in those  
>> challenges will
>> >> > increase.  First is the creativity factor.  A theme will force
>> >> people to
>> >> > draw upon the theme in a creative manner.  You don't want  
>> your entry to
>> >> > look like everyone elses.  The use of the brain in this  
>> manner leads to
>> >> > a more fun experience.  Second is the technical factor. You were
>> >> playing
>> >> > with Legos the other day and came up with a creative way to  
>> use certain
>> >> > parts.  If people are closely examining your entry because it is
>> >> similar
>> >> > enough to their own that they might find ways to improve upon  
>> it, this
>> >> > technical expertise will become more apparent.  Less experienced
>> >> > modelers will be able to get better ideas in a easier  
>> swallowed form
>> >> > than the current MOTM/SOTM, and more experienced modelers  
>> will enjoy
>> >> the
>> >> > competition and new ideas that are brought.
>> >> > (3) Community Strength. Finally, I will come up on my last  
>> factor.
>> >> LDRAW
>> >> > is a very powerful tool and can be a fun past time. The first  
>> place
>> >> > people go to look is most likely ldraw.org, and there people  
>> will want
>> >> > examples.  What better way to give examples than themed  
>> challenges.
>> >> >  Sure, people can kind of do that anyway with the current  
>> MOTM/SOTM,
>> >> but
>> >> > in that case they are wading through lots of randomness.   
>> Look at how
>> >> > IRTC.org works, they only show you the top entries when you  
>> click on
>> >> the
>> >> > bi-monthly contest, but if you want you can see all of them.  
>> Finally it
>> >> > gives people something to look forward to.  It is not very  
>> exciting to
>> >> > look forward to "just submitting another model."  It is  
>> exciting to
>> >> look
>> >> > forward to seeing the new theme and then coming up with a new
>> >> > model/scene for that theme.  Which is my final point, the  
>> draw of a
>> >> > themed contest is greater than an unthemed contest.  More people
>> >> will be
>> >> > interested, leads to a better contest, leads to more  
>> enthusiasm in
>> >> > LDRAW, circle on ad infinitum.
>> >> >
>> >> > Thank you for your time and consideration. You may forward  
>> this to
>> >> > whomever you feel should read it.
>> >> >
>> >> > Sincerely,
>> >> >
>> >> > Zach Best
>> >>
>> >> Some very good points.  We should probably discuss this  
>> further.  I've
>> >> been somewhat unsatisfied with the format contests for some  
>> time now.  I
>> >> did a little of tweaking when I issued the MOTM rule change a  
>> year and a
>> >> half ago but this was more to shift the focus of the MOTM  
>> contest from
>> >> the rendering technique back to the models themselves.  I don't  
>> know,
>> >> maybe a theme based challenge is the way to go.  Thoughts?
>> >>
>> >> Also, based on past precedence, we, meaning the website admins,  
>> have
>> >> complete control over the format, rules, etc. of the MOTM/SOTM  
>> contest
>> >> so SteerCo involvement is not required.
>> >>
>> >> -Orion
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> We don't stop playing because we grow old;
>> >> we grow old because we stop playing
>> >> -George Bernard Shaw
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