[Ldraw-content] Forwarding thoughts about the MOTM/SOTM contest

[Orion Pobursky]

Thanks for the input James.  Would you mind distilling your suggestions 
into a summarized list for me?


-Orion

James Reynolds wrote:
> I agree completely with Zack Best.  I have thought of entering the 
> contest but the lack of focus results in a lack of interest, at least 
> with myself.  Winning the contest right now doesn't say much.  There is 
> no prestige.  Who knows who voted, or how many people voted, or who even 
> looks at the winners.  I know I would die to win a contest over at 
> cgsociety:
> 
> http://forums.cgsociety.org/forumdisplay.php?f=121
> 
> The prestige that goes along with winning those awards speak volumes.  
> There needs to be someway to generate demand to win the contest.  
> Getting someone in the AFOL community who has prestige (Erik Sophie, 
> Chris Giddens, etc) to enter the contest would make it prestigious.  
> Winning a real prize could just be a way to encourage someone like Chris 
> Giddens to enter.
> 
> One thing CGSociety does is that they have a forum and if a user wins an 
> award, the award is listed on all of their posts in the forum.  Maybe we 
> could get Lugnet to support something similar.
> 
> http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?threadid=179462
> 
> And perhaps having users vote isn't the best approach either, but have a 
> panel of "expert" judges.  This could also add to the prestige, because 
> it means you have been judged by people with prestige.
> 
> Also, sometimes just looking at a model (what happens when the public 
> votes) won't reveal significant defects in it that become apparent when 
> the model is either built, printed as instructions, or animated (my pet 
> peeve with most LDraw models is that they are built all wrong for 
> animation).  How do you know if pieces are not snapped into place but 
> just floating?  Someone needs to inspect the model.  It would be the 
> panels responsibility to test these things.
> 
> And a theme panel is especially appropriate for a themed contest because 
> an expert space builder would have insight to truly ingenious space 
> modeling, but perhaps not castle modeling.  So each theme could have its 
> own specialists to judge the models.  In other words, get the non-LDraw 
> castle folks to judge castle themed competitions, space folk space 
> competitions, etc.
> 
> And there seems to be a disconnect between the LDraw part and the MOC 
> part of the competition.  What are these contests, MOC contests in the 
> LDraw medium, or LDraw contests of MOC's?  There is a difference that I 
> think is significant yet not addressed.  The difference is more obvious 
> when thinking of the scene contest.  Is it a MOC contest in the 
> ray-tracer medium, or is it a ray-tracer contest showing MOC's?
> 
> Here is another way of putting it.  There are ton's of SUPER MOC's out 
> there made by AFOL who have built up a reputation of quality building, 
> but they don't use LDraw.  If those people made LDraw models of their 
> MOC's, they could easily win every contest hands down.  And there are 
> tons of SUPER POV-Ray users out there who don't use LDraw.  If they did 
> and imported the objects into POV-Ray, they could build background 
> scenes that again, nobody could challenge.
> 
> And to complicate matters more, Mladen, IMO, could win every month if he 
> submitted his models.  Again, this goes to show the disconnect.  Why 
> isn't he submitting his models?  He is both a genius MOC builder AND an 
> LDraw user!
> 
> And personally, I know the idea behind the simple unappealing model 
> renders is to make them fair, but they are not fun to look at.  I think 
> they need to be ray traced with complimentary scenes and lighting.  And 
> it wouldn't hurt to have 360 degree spins of the models, and maybe even 
> take apart spins too.  Again, I think this will increase the prestige.
> 
> I would actually like a themed contest.  I have wanted LDraw MOCs for 
> animations for a long time, but there aren't any enough of good enough 
> quality (for what I'm looking for).  I have given serious thought of 
> hosting my own contests and giving away real prizes to get people to 
> create something I could use.  CGSociety also has huge themed contests 
> also:
> 
> http://features.cgsociety.org/challenge/
> 
> Many of the contest submitters got published:
> 
> http://store.cgsociety.org/product/000082/
> http://store.cgsociety.org/product/000099/
> 
> I know LDraw is very small compared to CGSociety, but there are 
> certainly many active Lego AFOL's who have the ability to submit some 
> fantastic works if they had the motivation.  And there is TLG.  I'm not 
> sure if they would want to share some of their prestige, but who knows.  
> And I know when Tim C. was working on LPrize he had some significant 
> backing (although for a  different type of contest, it just goes to show 
> that getting prestigious or financial backing for real prizes isn't 
> impossible).  His contest was a significant motivation behind the PCS 
> dogfight animation I created.  And it was shown on TV.  That prestige 
> thing again...
> 
> Other things.
> 
> I like the 100 piece contest idea.  I've got several models I could 
> submit but wont on the current rules because of the risk that someone 
> submits some 10000 piece model.  In fact, some of the community contests 
> have a themed contest and have 3 different size categories (with 3 prizes).
> 
> Is 2 months enough time for some types of MOCs (capital ships...)?  And 
> judging should not begin until the submission deadline.  This is a huge 
> problem IMO.
> 
> And there needs to be a way to handle models that don't win.  Do they 
> stay in the competition indefinitely?  What if model A is an exceptional 
> model, but someone submits model B, which is absolutely ingenious and 
> wins hands down.  But the next month, nothing is submitted that even 
> comes close to model A from the month before?  Should model A have 
> stayed in the competition (and thus won)?  I believe I have actually 
> seen this happen in the contests in the past (where a previous month's 
> submission lost but was better than the next month's submissions).  A 
> themed contest would partially solve this.  Another solution is 
> honorable mentions (not a required award, but only if it is deemed 
> exceptional).
> 
> And the scene contests.  People use all kinds of different rendering 
> techniques.  What about using Anton Raves' POV-Ray library?  Would those 
> qualify if the original scene/models were created in LDraw?  What if 
> they weren't?  Would it still qualify?  What if I port LDraw models to 
> Blender and then Maya and use RenderMan to render it, or what if I 
> modify the models in ways that are impossible in LDraw or POV-Ray, like 
> deforming minifigs into life like positions or using volumetrics or 
> other effects that are really difficult in POV-Ray?
> 
> And yet, if those things are allowed, then they should also be part of 
> the judging.  For example, a scene that uses fog poorly should be 
> docked.  What if someone works hours and hours developing their own 
> light effects, and someone else just uses the POV-Ray lens flare macro?  
> Are these taken into consideration?  This provides further evidence that 
> the scene contest is too unfocused.  It needs some sort of guidelines to 
> take these variables into account.
> 
> In a way, the scene competition is really the "publicly judged" one (vs 
> judged by a panel), because it seems that anything goes in it, and the 
> winner is the one who appeals to the visual senses most.
> 
> And I can never find the link to see the submissions and vote.  After a 
> few minutes I remember that I need to login.  Which gives me the link to 
> vote.  Which leads to a very empty page with a link to vote on something 
> having nothing to do with the contest.  This may annoy new comers (and 
> since the contest hasn't been held for a while, really everyone is a new 
> comer).
> 
> Ok, I've been editing this email for grammar for way too long and every 
> time through it keeps doubling in size.  I guess I feel strongly about 
> this.  I'll just have to live with any errors.  So if there is a 
> sentence half written or something that doesn't make sense somewhere 
> above, you know why.  I'll stop now....  O:)
> 
> I like the idea of the contests.  But I think they could use a lot of 
> improvement, mainly focus like Zack said, and focus on making it a 
> prestigious contest.
> 
> James
> 
> 
> On Oct 16, 2006, at 3:23 PM, Timothy Gould wrote:
> 
>> Of course we could also keep the special competitions as a rare event
>> (say two a year) announced two months in advance. That would give
>> people the time and a greater inclination to enter them.
>>
>> TIm
>>
>>
>> On 10/16/06, LDraw <ldraw at holly-wood.it> wrote:
>>> I like the idea of the 100 pieces or a theme-bound contest. we could
>>> alternate them. also a rotation challenge or using at least two given
>>> pieces could work.
>>>
>>> w.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Timothy Gould schrieb:
>>> > I do agree that the MOTM could do with some tweaking. Personally I
>>> > won't enter it because it doesn't make any sense to me. I quite like
>>> > SOTM as it is presently run since judging a complete picture is
>>> > arbitrary anyway and it can really be boiled down to what you like
>>> > best.
>>> >
>>> > As I expressed in my private response to Zach my worry is that by
>>> > making either more precise we limit entrants from what is already a
>>> > very small pool. That said if we keep the categories broad enough (eg.
>>> > castle models, models under 100 pieces) then people might have stuff
>>> > already done that they can submit.
>>> >
>>> > It's a difficult question though.
>>> >
>>> > Tim
>>> >
>>> > On 10/16/06, Orion Pobursky <orion at ldraw.org> wrote:
>>> >> LDraw wrote:
>>> >> > hi,
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I'll forward the following email. if you feel this belongs more 
>>> to the
>>> >> > steerco please let me know.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > w.
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> >  >----Messaggio originale----
>>> >> > Da: zach.best at gmail.com
>>> >> > Data: 16-ott-2006 7.05 PM
>>> >> > A: <WILLY.TSCHAGER at tin.it>
>>> >> > Ogg: Re: LDraw.org MOTM/SOTM Relaunch
>>> >> >
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Hi,
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Thank you for restarting the MOTM/SOTM.  I am excited to take 
>>> part in
>>> >> > the challenges.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I would like to propose a change to MOTM/SOTM.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > As it stands, the challenges are very unfocused. A person can 
>>> basically
>>> >> > use any model they have built in ages past.  Scenes are a little
>>> >> > different, but many times old works can be used.  There is also a
>>> >> > discrepancy in who "wins."  Are we supposed to judge each 
>>> separately?
>>> >> > Well we want our favorite entry to win, but how do you decide 
>>> between
>>> >> > clever (bonsai tree) vs. technical (starship) vs. cool (???)?  
>>> It seems
>>> >> > so mish-mash.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > The change I would like to propose is to have a monthly theme 
>>> for each
>>> >> > MOTM/SOTM.  The themes can be really simple and ambiguous (see the
>>> >> > Internet Ray Tracing Contest irtc.org for ideas).
>>> >> >
>>> >> > I think this would help the MOTM/SOTM for the following reasons:
>>> >> > (1) Focus.  Part of the MOTM/SOTM is to give other LDRAW users
>>> >> ideas. We
>>> >> > want to share knowledge.  When you have a 50,000 piece starship 
>>> sitting
>>> >> > next to a 500 piece vignette, the reader loses focus.  They can't
>>> >> > compare how the builder of the starship created his radar dishes 
>>> to how
>>> >> > the vignette builder posed the minifig.  If the challenges were 
>>> themed,
>>> >> > a reader could do exactly that.  There would be a bigger reason to
>>> >> > compare what has been entered and thereby expand the reader's 
>>> knowledge
>>> >> > of Lego and LDRAW.
>>> >> > (2) Interest. While I can't speak for everyone, a
>>> >> > 'submit-whatever-you-want' contest is not interesting.  This 
>>> directly
>>> >> > correlates with focus.  An unfocused challenge will not draw the
>>> >> > interest that the MOTM/SOTM has the potential to draw. If the 
>>> monthly
>>> >> > challenge has a theme, I believe the interest in those 
>>> challenges will
>>> >> > increase.  First is the creativity factor.  A theme will force
>>> >> people to
>>> >> > draw upon the theme in a creative manner.  You don't want your 
>>> entry to
>>> >> > look like everyone elses.  The use of the brain in this manner 
>>> leads to
>>> >> > a more fun experience.  Second is the technical factor. You were
>>> >> playing
>>> >> > with Legos the other day and came up with a creative way to use 
>>> certain
>>> >> > parts.  If people are closely examining your entry because it is
>>> >> similar
>>> >> > enough to their own that they might find ways to improve upon 
>>> it, this
>>> >> > technical expertise will become more apparent.  Less experienced
>>> >> > modelers will be able to get better ideas in a easier swallowed 
>>> form
>>> >> > than the current MOTM/SOTM, and more experienced modelers will 
>>> enjoy
>>> >> the
>>> >> > competition and new ideas that are brought.
>>> >> > (3) Community Strength. Finally, I will come up on my last factor.
>>> >> LDRAW
>>> >> > is a very powerful tool and can be a fun past time. The first place
>>> >> > people go to look is most likely ldraw.org, and there people 
>>> will want
>>> >> > examples.  What better way to give examples than themed challenges.
>>> >> >  Sure, people can kind of do that anyway with the current 
>>> MOTM/SOTM,
>>> >> but
>>> >> > in that case they are wading through lots of randomness.  Look 
>>> at how
>>> >> > IRTC.org works, they only show you the top entries when you 
>>> click on
>>> >> the
>>> >> > bi-monthly contest, but if you want you can see all of them. 
>>> Finally it
>>> >> > gives people something to look forward to.  It is not very 
>>> exciting to
>>> >> > look forward to "just submitting another model."  It is exciting to
>>> >> look
>>> >> > forward to seeing the new theme and then coming up with a new
>>> >> > model/scene for that theme.  Which is my final point, the draw of a
>>> >> > themed contest is greater than an unthemed contest.  More people
>>> >> will be
>>> >> > interested, leads to a better contest, leads to more enthusiasm in
>>> >> > LDRAW, circle on ad infinitum.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Thank you for your time and consideration. You may forward this to
>>> >> > whomever you feel should read it.
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Sincerely,
>>> >> >
>>> >> > Zach Best
>>> >>
>>> >> Some very good points.  We should probably discuss this further.  
>>> I've
>>> >> been somewhat unsatisfied with the format contests for some time 
>>> now.  I
>>> >> did a little of tweaking when I issued the MOTM rule change a year 
>>> and a
>>> >> half ago but this was more to shift the focus of the MOTM contest 
>>> from
>>> >> the rendering technique back to the models themselves.  I don't know,
>>> >> maybe a theme based challenge is the way to go.  Thoughts?
>>> >>
>>> >> Also, based on past precedence, we, meaning the website admins, have
>>> >> complete control over the format, rules, etc. of the MOTM/SOTM 
>>> contest
>>> >> so SteerCo involvement is not required.
>>> >>
>>> >> -Orion
>>> >>
>>> >> --
>>> >> We don't stop playing because we grow old;
>>> >> we grow old because we stop playing
>>> >> -George Bernard Shaw